On Monday evening a special meeting was called by the Old Seminole Heights Neighborhood Association. (Note: reading this article, like the meeting, is probably a waste of your time.) The meeting concerned the controversy surrounding the recent board election which is stirring animosity in the neighborhood. Dirk Peters claimed two people illegally voted. Then he conducted a recount without the member’s ballots. Here’s the issues from the meeting:
- OSHNA did not have a verification system prior to elections
- Dirk Peters was not authorized to spend $250 of the associations money to conduct the recount
- Peters was not the committee chair person
- The membership of two individuals is in question, there is a lack of clarification on what constitutes a business license
- The two individuals were likely fingered because of assumptions concerning their voting preference.
- No official calls were made to validate all members that voted which would seem fair if you question two individuals
- By-laws state: “Any member can request a recounting of ballots when the results are reported. If no request is received the results shall be determined to be final.”
- Nobody requested a recount
- Peters and election committee was able view how everyone voted through Election Trust (third party that conducted election)…privacy issue
The meeting was beyond ridiculous. It was embarrassing and I considered throwing away my membership card. Call me crazy but I think the board should move on and fix the problems with the election process. Require a deadline to become a member so the association has time to review the membership list. The by-laws, as written, do not call for a mechanism to recount after the results are declared final so little can be done at this point.
Nothing was accomplished and there was no control over the direction of the meeting. There we’re frequent verbal exchanges between Peters and the rest of the residents. Peters lost his composure and talked over several members of the board to include OSHNA President Bill Duvall.
Shawn Hicks called for a motion requesting Peters to payback the $250 and write an apology letter to the board for misrepresenting himself as the co-chair of the election committee. The vote passed 6 to 2. Duvall abstained from the vote.
At the end of the meeting Eric Krause resigned from his positions as a trustee and the home tour committee chairman. Krause argued that “there are people trying to breakup the neighborhood”. He was flustered and it is obvious the politics of “dumb” have exhausted him.
The meeting was a poor representation of the great things this community has accomplished. The few involved in the poorly played political game do not have a true agenda. Their politics are personality based. Not issue based. This is a common theme in African nations where the people come before the issues. Where unseating the opposition takes precedence over everything else.
These issues can be addressed. Strong agendas need to be brought forward by the President. Personal attacks and unnecessary banter needs to be restricted. Once a point is made, leave it at that. Nobody wants to hear the same argument a dozen times. Control needs to be taken. Nobody is benefiting from these special meetings. It’s just a bunch of bitching and crying. By the way, arguing in a soft incoherent voice doesn’t make your argument any more justified or less ridiculous.
Maybe we all need a reality check, after all the sun will still rise tomorrow. Sometimes you need to let go and think about what really matters. Community is important but not at the expense of the community.
Old Seminole Heights resident.
Dirk,
I have high hopes that the real estate market improves so that your company, Heights Realty, will go back to the business of selling homes, and so that you stop worrying about such petty items. You seem to have far too much time on your hands, and that appears to have a negative effect on OSHNA, its board, and its members. You seem to have a lot of sour grapes that most of the “Vote the Other Guy” candidates lost in the recent Board election, and the chaos you’ve caused has made OSHNA much less effective as a neighborhood association. Have you considered working in another industry so that you’ll be able to stay busy?
Dirk,
Move on! It doesn’t matter if your right. Your like a pit bull with your teeth sunk into a piece of meat. Sometimes it’s best to let things go. This organization has an extremely negative image in the neighborhood and your not helping them by sparing with a board member. You could stick around till they kick you out but whats the point? I woudn’t answer there demand letter nor would I send an apology letter as I found that petty and juvenile. It reminds me of what a grammar school teacher would have requested. It’s time for you to move on! If they give you the boat count it as a blessing!!
Shawn,
No need to apologize. I wasn’t Chair, your right !
The Chair was in Baltimore,while I and others took care of the election.
I missed your response to the $ 4,000.+ waste of funds, chasing a domain name you & the board stated was ’stolen”. Only to be told by the governing body of domain names (ICANN), that OSHNA has “NO” legal rights to that domain name and furthermore OSHNA has no “common law trademark” rights to “Old Seminole Heights”.
So you spend twenty times $ 250.00.
Interesting set of standards?
Shawn, the issue is still about the integrity of the voting process and the issue will remain a cloud over the OSHNA for some time to come.
It’s about your friends who voted who don’t qualify. And, others who interferred with the process.
The issue isn’t about DIRK PETERS. It’s about the PROCESS ~ It’s about the OSHNA’s reputation and good name being tarnished !
This issue will do more damage than the domain name (ICANN) suit of last year.
So how much of OSHNA’s resource’s are you willing to spend to chase $250.00???
Shawn, you a gambler ??? I’ll put up $ 1,000.00 and OSHNA puts up $ 1,000.00, take the issue to arbitration.
If I lose, I’ll reimburse OSHNA $ 250.00 and apologize ! And, pay the
$ 1,000.00 for the arbitration !!
If OSHNA loses, they pay for arbitration !
And, just to make the game a little more interesting – the WINNER GETS ANOTHER $ 1k, TO DONATE TO THEIR FAVORITE CHARITY !
I fell that STRONG about my actions, which I performed in “good faith” and I know your a very confident person, So what you say?
This proposal hurts no one …. the truth will prevail and OSHNA & Dirk Peters, do something positive for our community!
No Dirk. I am saying you are not the chair of the elections committee because the steps required by the bylaws to make you one never happened nor was there ever any intention by the board to make you a chair. It is irrelevant what Aharon did or wanted in this case because his actions or opinions are not relevant to the question of your actual status as a chair of a committee.
The issue of whether or not you are a chairperson is important because it speaks to what authority you did or did not have. If you were a chairperson, appointed by the president and approved by the board, my position your personal actions changes.
I repeat my offer to apologize and make amends should you provide evidence that you were a bona fide elections committee chair.
Shawn,
Are U saying Aharon didn’t ask for a co-chair ??
Anyway the only issue that matters, were Steve Johns & David Purnell eligible to vote ?
If you read all the Bylaws, the President isn’t even allowed to attend an Elections Committe meeting, so I’m sure the standing President wasn’t allowed to weigh in on someone’s eligiblibity to vote!
Shawn on a personal note, I wanted to THANK YOU, for how opened-minded you were on Monday evening ??? You had your gun loaded !! And, a motion raring to go.
Your actions serve no useful purpose ….. and in the end only serve to damage OSHNA’s reputation !
If $ 250.00 damaged the the OSHNA, that may be something to discuss. However, you’ll spend $ 200.00 plus, chasing $ 250.00. And, in the end I’m sure the goal is to expell me ? ? ?
So please tell me what good have you & your fellow board members accomplished, by this action ??
Mr. Spanos and others complain about $ 250.00, while you & others spend $ 4,000 plus, chasing a domain name. How, has that action helped the OSHNA ?? And, jsut where was Mr. Spanos, while these monies were flying out the door …. where was his concern for the OSHNA and the miss-use of funds ???
Shawn, bottom-line is you and others like the result of the elections !
Your bias – PLAIN & SIMPLE !
And, no one has shown otherwise ! Steve Johns & David Purnell are employees of Mike Massimini. Not becasue I say so, but because the Florida Real Estate laws, state so !
However, I don’t want to put too many facts on the table!
Answer me this – what do you think would happen if someone independent reviewed the matter?
Dirk cannot be a chair or co-chair of the elections committee without conforming to this very clear bylaw:
Article V section 4
“[1] Conduct of the Election: At the third quarterly membership meeting, the president shall appoint a chairperson of an elections committee. The chairperson cannot be a candidate in the forthcoming elections”
So what we need to have Dirk as a chair and/or co-chair of this committee is an act by the president, Jeff Harmon at that time, and confirmed in the minutes.
Here is the act by the president Jeff Harmon to set the committee chair as required at the July board meeting.
“2. Elections Chair Appointment – Jeff nominated Aharon Chernin as the 2009 Nominations Chair.
Motion: To appoint Aharon as Nomination Chair
First: Shawn Hicks
Second: Evan St. Ives
Motion: Passed unanimously”
So here you have the appointment and the confirmation by the board.
Here is Jeff making that appointment at the July general membership meeting:
“5. ANNOUNCEMENTS – JEFF HARMON
a. Election Season is approaching. The Nominations Committee Chair is Aharon Chernin. Nominations can be made by e-mail and through the website. ”
The list of who may not create a committee chair is as long as there are people in the world. It is easier to list who may, according to the bylaws, create an OSHNA committee chair: The President, confirmed by the remaining board of directors. Among the names of who may not create a committee chair or co-chair (same difference) is: Aharon Chernin, Dirk Peters, any member of the OSHNA board acting alone, any service provider hired by OSHNA including Elections Trust, and any committee member of a committee where the chair as resigned.
Dirk Peters is not and has never been a chairperson of this committee.
If Dirk felt that the committee should not automatically dissolve on the night of the election and that the election was not final, he should have approached the new board and made his case. He did not. He acted on his own, without authority from either board.
It does not matter if Dirk discussed this with any board member, whether or not those members agreed or disagreed with him. No individual member of the board, acting alone, can grant anyone the authority to act on behalf of the association.
If Dirk or anyone else can show me were president Jeff Harmon appointed Dirk as co-chair and the board confirmed, I will motion to strike my earlier motion regarding the $250 and hand-write a personal apology to Dirk Peters.
Hi Co-chair Peters,
I am sorry…what ?
Matt
Hi Matt,
The election process should not be tainted, would you agree ?
Stuart Hess (new-elected Trustee) pointed out that the two gentlemen don’t qualify? And, he and I objected to their votes. So last year Diana Duvall, was singled out by Bill Hunter & Doreen DiBona (trustes) is their some difference here ??
Article V 4 – 4 – read there for election committee’s duties to insure only members in good standing vote. I think perhaps you might be more that the election commitee could have done ?? I would agree, we could check ever voter ! However that doesn’t mean we should look the other way, when we know someone doesn’t meet OSHNA’s standards, does it !
The real issue is the interference by candidates, etc. If you read all the by laws, hell the President can’t attend an Election committee meetings, as to assure a fair election.
Matt, I was trying to run a fair election, that’s all.
Thanks, Matt.
Co-chair Peters,
It is clear to me, you are a person who likes to hear himself talk. Your long winded ramblings open the doors to more questions than they provide answers or insight. The only three questions I would like to discuss,
1. According to Article V Section 4.4, “The Election of Officers: The election of officers shall be held at the fourth quarterly general membership meeting. The elections committee shall oversee the election by insuring that only members in good standing cast ballots. The election committee shall be responsible for counting the ballots and reporting the results to the chairperson.
“.
Question – As the co-chair, what steps/process did you take to ensure only members in good standing cast ballots ?
2. According to Article V section 4.5, “Confirmation of Election: Any member can request a recounting of ballots when the results are reported. If no request is received the results shall be determined to be final. If a recount confirms the results the outcome shall be determined to be final.”
Question – No member asked for a recount when the results were reported, so why did you unilaterally request a recount from Elections Trust…on what authority?
3. You mention by-laws in every post. Where in the by-laws, does it give the co-chair of the elections committee the role/responsibility to reach out to any member or persons on behalf of OSHNA to determine “right or wrong” on membership status?
I eagerly await your response.
Matt
“As of now, I am in control here in the White House.”
Alexander Haig
DEAR TOMMY -
A few more facts ~
August 18, 2009 – OSHNA Board Meeting Minutes
17. NOMINATIONS – Aharon Chernin
Aharon asked Ingrid Smith if she would be interested in serving as co-Chair. Ingrid said she’d consider it, however she feels it would be more appropriate to have someone outside of Old Seminole Heights serve. Shawn pointed out one must be an OSHNA member to hold a committee and committee chair position.
Email from John Bodin @ Election Trust
Dated September 14, 2009 4:19PM
Aharon & Dirk,
As a follow up to today’s phone call (with Aharon) let me reiterate the following:
1. We will use the link provided below to begin our build of both the paper ballot and eBallot. Candidates will be listed alphabetically.
2. As our ‘on-ballot’ candidate profile capability is limited to a low-res portrait and 1,500 characters (with spaces) – and your profiles are considerably bigger than that – we will prominently post the candidate profile URL on the eBallot log-in page as well as include it in the (ADDED)* OSHNA Election Letter which will be enclosed in each outgoing ballot packet (which will display the OSHNA logo and BALLOT ENCLOSED language.
3. Content for the OSHNA Election Letter should be provided to us by tomorrow COB – we will format it (with Logo and signature provided by you) and will have that – along with both ballots – for you to proof by COB on Wednesday.
4. By COB Wednesday we should also have received your Eligible Voter list in a clean Excel format.
5. Thursday, will work with you to proof and correct both ballots/Letter for sign-off no later than 10am ET on Friday.
6. Once we have that sign-off we will begin printing and mailing production on the outgoing ballot packets on Friday for Monday COB drop here in Seattle.
7. Also, on Friday (or Monday if that works better for you both) we’ll conduct a ‘blind’ L&A test of the eBallot – once our report matched your test balloting, we’ll lock the eBallot down for open on Wednesday, Sept. 23.
8. We still need to decide when to shutdown paper ballot receipt – we suggest October 26th – this gives us a window to generate our Voter Credit list for delivery to you by COB on that day. If that is the cut-off day we will include language in the Letter to make sure that a paper ballot should be in the mail to us no later than October 21st. IMOPRTANT: you will use this list to qualify members who have NOT already voted to do so by eBallot at the meeting. Once you have closed that eVoting off we can run the full merged paper and eBallot tally for a certified results report by phone (should take about 20 minutes total).
*the inclusion of the OSHNA Election Letter will necessitate an additional $85.00 be added to the quote.
Just to confirm, you are OHNA Co-Chairs and are therefore Election Trust’s only points of contact with regards to election administration. We will refer to both of you any contact we get from other individuals who have comments or questions about the election.
We look forward to working with you both.
Best Regards,
John Bodin
Managing Partner
Election Trust LLC
http://www.electiontrust.com
800 Bellevue Way NE
Suite 400
Bellevue, WA 98004
(O) 425.462.2704
(M) 206.465.4475
(Skype) electiontrustee
TOMMY-
A few facts about the election & Monday special meeting:
1) OSHNA does have a verification system – The Bylaws! However, they read them 1 way 1 year. And, another way the next!
2) Your right Tommy, I was a Co-chair.
3) The bylaw doesn’t address the term “business license”. It states you must “own” a business within the boundaries of OSHNA. And, your friends Steve & David, do not own a business within the boundaries. Very simple to understand, UNLESS, you would like to twist, bend or mold the bylaw for your agenda!
4) There was a challenge is place by Stuart Hess & myself. And, furthermore there was a request by me to pull their votes. However, if there hadn’t been interference by standing board members/candidates, member & attorney, there would have been no reason for a recount.
5) Your claim that I & the election committee were able to view everyone votes is false. The only reason I know how Steve & David vote, is there was a need for the recount & then I was able to compare the original results. However, the only other person whom I’m aware knows the results are, Bill Duvall.
I agree the meeting was not productive on any level.
This meeting was scheduled for the OSHNA 6’s little witch-hunt. For
$ 250.00, WOW impressive after wasted $4-5k chasing a domain name. Other committee’s have been over-budget, never a word from this board! And, if I’m to hand over $ 250. & apologize why not my good friend, Bill Duvall ??? He was aware of the recount, prior to my request and was copied on all emails from Election Trust and received the results via the email as I did??? More of board’s discrimination!
This year’s election will damage OSHNA’s reputation for years to come.
As a member since 1991, the past two years have been an absolute disaster. So, as I see it there has been “NO LEADERSHIP”.
The board last year and the OSHNA 6 this year have forgotten what the OSHNA, is all about!
MAF,
The facts are the refund was $ 400.00 – NOT $ 250.
And, I never asked John Bodin to mail me a check ! NEVER ! For a couple of days, I couldn’t figure out how he knew my PO BOX address ?? He obtained this info from the Membership list.
What would I do with a check made out to OSHNA ????
And, if Cathy Simon hadn’t over-paid, their would be nothing to talk about!
So please quit adding BS, to a very simple issue – 2 people didn’t qualify to vote based on OSHNA Bylaws !
Furthemore, Bill Duvall was aware of the recount before, during and after the recount and was included in all emails, regarding the recount, from myself and Election Trust. Perhaps to be fair Mr. Duvall should receive a letter from Mr. Patrick asking for the $ 250. (recount fee) and a public apology.
Dirk Peters
Member since 1991
(in bad standing?) Please find that in the bylaws.
Dirk said:
“So I suppose then were (sic) to believe that John Bodin from Election Trust in Washington State, comes-up with a concept, all by himself to name Dirk Peters (a person he has never spoke with), and decides to name him a co-chair. Very interesting story ?????? And furthermore no reasonable person would believe that story”
Are we also to believe this same person (John Bodin) was lying (as you suggested) when he said you instructed him to mail the $250 to you? Very interesting story ?????? And furthermore, no reasonable person would believe that story.
Deidre,
I agree with your first paragraph 100 %. The balances of your comments fail to acknowledge some of the other facts of the election evening and other efforts made after the election. Facts which you are not aware of, I’m sure.
The Co-chair issue is quite funny to me ….I show you minutes of an OSHNA meeting whereby Aharon requests a co-chair …. And then Election Trust sends Aharon & Myself an email outlining the election process that states “Aharon/Dirk are co-chairs “…. So, I guess I’m a liar ??? So I suppose then were to believe that John Bodin from Election Trust in Washington State, comes-up with a concept, all by himself to name Dirk Peters (a person he has never spoke with), and decides to name him a co-chair. Very interesting story ?????? And furthermore no reasonable person would believe that story.
Before the election results were announced there was a protest from Stuart Hess and myself. Please keep in mind Mr. Johns & Mr. Purnell don’t qualify to vote as per our current bylaws. So the $ 64,000.00 question is do we want people voting who don’t qualify. And, a member, 2 officer/candidates & member/attorney/spokesperson interfered with the voting process. Nowhere in the bylaws does it state anyone except the election committee shall make election decisions. Before the results were announced I asked Stephanie to pull their pin numbers so that we could pull their votes based upon the fact that they don’t own a business within the boundaries of OSHNA. Also, there was a follow-up email about 2-3 hours later, after I got home. Several weeks I called Steve Johns and left a message to meet with myself & Bill Duvall, to verify if I was right or wrong. Seems like a fair way to review the facts. No return calls to date.
I agree with you about wasting $ 250.00. If there had been no election tampering, there would have been no need for a recount! However, I didn’t see you making an issue of the $ 4,500+ grand spent last year to chase a domain name the OSHNA 9 says was stolen! That’s some 18 times the money! ! or bigger scholarships or elderly neighbors house paint or groceries for some neighbors etc. The home tour brochure cost $ 1,000.00 more this year than last?? I can get the newsletter printed for
$ 2,000.00 less per year?? I as co-chair, being that Aharon resigned, I authorized myself to spend the money, and however Bill Duvall was fully aware of my actions. So did you see SHAWN send Bill Duvall a demand letter requesting $ 250.00 and a request for an apology?? I think that may be discrimination!
The bylaws do need a lot of work!
However, in this case the two non-voting members – VOTED !
And, in this case the bylaws are being ignored! (see Article I)
And, if you see Elections Article V 4-4. You’ll find that the elections committe is charged with insuring that only members in good standing cast ballots. NOT THE BOARD ! NOT THE MEMBERSHIP CHAIR ! NOT ATTORNEY !
If these members cared about OSHNA and protecting OSHNA’s good ? name, they would have taken a “GOOD FAITH” look at the facts. They would made an inquiry with Johns & Purnell. Truth is they care their desired goal and miss-read, twist,bend and mold the facts & bylaws, to justify their actions !
So we can have all the new blaws we want. And, still ignore them.
“Arguments of convenience lack integrity and inevitably trip you up.”
Donald Rumsfeld
If last night’s meeting was any example of things to come, then OSHNA has HUGE problems. We moved into the neighborhood because we love our homes and wanted to participate in a community where people could walk down tree lined streets,and to say hello to neighbors who we know by name. This is our common purpose. The people who we elect to the board should have these goals. If a friend gets elected great- if not, it should not be the end of the world…it is a neighborhood association. We are wasting time and money talking about and conducting recounts.
If Mr. Peters felt as though a recount were needed, he should have said so the night of the election. I was there when the results were announced. I heard no shouts of protest, no official demand for a recount. Yet, a general OSHNA member (Mr. Peters) posed as an election committe co-chair, contacted the Election Trust organization days after the election to pull certain votes and retabulate the ballots after the election was completed and finalized($250!). For what? Just to see what would happen? To what end? How does this $250 act serve OSHNA? Who gave you the authority to conduct such an act?
The argument was made that the election committee was budgeted $2000 and asking for a retabulation would not put the committee over budget. First, just because a committee is budgeted a certain amount doesn’t mean they are required to spend each dime. That money could have been redirected to a scholarship fund, to the community garden group or to bringing in a speaker to talk about caring for historic homes… do we even discuss these topics anymore? Second, who authorized you to spend this money?
Because there was no obvious protest to the results on the night of the election, no precedent for this act of pulling votes just to see how the outcome would change, this comes across as self indulgent and agenda driven. (The only end result is to show that our election bylaws need to be more clearly defined) – and that conversation could have taken place for free.
What I learned from this blog and missing the board meeting.
1. $250.00 is worth fighting with your fellow members about but thousands spent on attorneys shouldn’t be talked about.
2. Dirks new name is Richard.
3. Tommy though I never agree with your commentary you always have the coolest pictures!
thou the pic of Steve G on the porch makes you think is any of this really important.
4. Peter Spamus can’t argue his point and has to resort to name calling.
5. Eric is a smart man.
6. Stuart must be OK if Peter calls him an #$shole.
7. Rick- there you go again – using that word courtroom on a blog -now their Lawyers are going for another couple thou.
8. Shawn don’t call in the Lawyers yet wait for the filings. Chances are real good that nothing will happen and you will save the membership $$$$.
9. Apology Letter that is the laugh of the night. Will you send it to Tommy so he can put it on the blog. I gotta see this one.
10. The pres abstained? What? At least Jeff would have had the stones to cast a vote.
Now who gets Eric’s seat?
Shawn-
I think you have me confused with you former treasurer pal Carlos who had his attorney threaten a lawsuit if the report Susan wrote after being elected treasurer and also threated (so you claimed) to sue OSHNA if the documentation of the threatened suit was disclosed. No one outside your little clique has any verification of any of it.
What I wrote regarding any thing legal was regarding access to the membership base when it was denied by Mr. Harmon this past summer:
“That is what I expected. I guess the next stop will be the courtroom. I want to see the vote of the board on this.”
Tell me what has changed. Putting out on this blog that I threatened a lawsuit if I didclosed a threatened lawsuit is a LIE. Why does that not surprise me coming from you. You have a real problem with the truth.
Shawn,
The members strongly disagree with the way you & others are handling OSHNA’s business. Expelling people, ICANN suits & throwing elections !
PLAIN & SIMPLE !
The witch-hunt last over $ 250.00, was laughable. No monies were wasted !
If the bylaws were followed, there would no reason for a recount !
I am embarrassed at how badly the meeting went. We’re a new board just a month old with an obvious political split. If there are any more meetings like this one, I will consider giving my volunteer time to another organization just as Eric has done.
There is a group of people trying to tear the association apart. I believe the past board did a disservice to the membership by trying to handle the threats ourselves and not informing the membership of the details. I have no intention of making that mistake this year. The thread about Rick Fifer’s threatened lawsuit where two sitting board members are named as helping has a post showing the emails for everyone to read. There are many other examples of the same small group of people attacking the organization, not just the board members they dislike.
Heck, Rick Fifer even threatened lawsuit if we told people he threatened a lawsuit. People–get serious. Do you hate OSHNA and her works so much that you have to petition not just the City of Tampa, but the State of Florida, and the Federal government to make life difficult for the organization? Then you send us emails asking for “peace” and “healing”?
It’s just a freaking neighborhood association. Take a step back, a deep breath, and let us get on with our pot lucks, lake cleanups, holiday concerts, and tree plantings. All this drama is a waste of time. As I said earlier this year, if you think you can do a better job, wait patiently for the next election and get your people on the board. That is how this works. Stop trying to change the election by getting board members to quit, force board members off, or now Dirk’s threat to use the court system to dissolve OSHNA.
Just Stop.
So what I see here is the distinct possibility of a vendetta being answered with another vendetta.
As far as I can see, whether or not the two members who may or may not have been able to vote (dangerous to assume the motivation) should have been the point of this meeting. What it turned into is completely unfathomable. The actions of a concerned member, whether right or wrong, should not negate the original point. But, it’s easy to obfuscate genuine issues with bullshit.
Another poorly presnted story by Tommy. A lot of miss-stated facts!
I suppose you missed Peter Spanos call Stuart an asshole and me a dick !
Why not report some of the truth???
Your two friends don’t qualify to vote, based on the current bylaws!
And, I should look the other way ?? Because they voted illegally for the past 3-4 years ! Your integrity is like the OSHNA 9.
And, it’s absured for you to say I or anyone would know how someone might vote.
The OSHNA represents no one !